Expanding Fintech Opportunities with Eric Glyman of Ramp

Jeremy Allaire: Welcome, everyone to a new episode of The Money Movement. I'm joined here today with Eric Glyman who's the Co-Founder and CEO of Ramp, a high growth, high profile, FinTech focused on reinventing how businesses, startups, growth companies bank on the internet, something that's obviously near and dear to our heart at Circle as well. I'm really pleased to have you on here, Eric.

Eric Glyman: Thanks for the invitation. Great to see you, Jeremy.

Jeremy: Yes, excellent. Lots of stuff I was hoping to chat with you about today, I thought maybe we could just start with some of the basics, which are really helpful for people, which just maybe just take a couple of minutes mission, vision of Ramp, where are you on that journey, and then we're going to connect the dots into some other stuff, too.

Eric: That sounds great. I'll start with what is Ramp here for and I think it's [unintelligible 00:00:57] notion of every company has a purpose. We serve thousands of companies, whether they're working on from the health care system making humanity multi-planetary, our mission as a company is to save companies their most valuable resources, it's their time, and it's their capital, so they can build better, stronger, more efficient businesses. The way we do that is by creating finance, automation tools, and so we're known and power the fastest growing corporate card in the US, it's a corporate card that has built the stem controls and tools to help the average company spend less money.

We also offer bill payments, expense management, accounting automation. The net effect is that when you use a Ramp Card, or Ramp payments, in general, we're able to help the average company cut their spend by about 3.3% per year. More dollars back to get used in the core company's purpose. We help speed up accounting [unintelligible 00:01:49], and so we help the average company close their books about five days faster each month.

Overall, our focus is really trying to build tools that are so useful that whether you're a startup founder, operating a finance teams at a large company or a small, you're able to really automate, really the menial and the low-value parts of your job and focus on high-value, just growing your company. That's a bit about us, but happy to go deeper.

Jeremy: Yes, awesome. I want to come back to a bunch of themes there in a little bit. I think one of the other big topics I wanted to talk about, maybe we'll move into that. Then we'll come back to the fundamentals of Ramp's businesses, you guys made waves recently, with a blog post that you put out, which was then I think, covered in Forbes, or Fortune, or whatever. Basically, about how you had looked at your own balance sheet and you had analyzed all the different ways that you could use your capital.

Your research led you to look at stable coins, in particular USDC, and stable coin yields and USDC as a really important way for you as a treasurer, I guess it's not you, your treasurer, your CFO, and treasurer to manage capital. Obviously, full disclosure we're working with you on that, and your customer circle and circle yield and everything else but I'd love to hear your high-level take on that. Then I have some follow-up questions.

Eric: Yes, of course. A couple of things, just first, with obviously the lion's share, and where we focus most capital for our business is really on the core operations and making sure that we have a just robust a lot of capital for whether it's good days, rainy days, all that, we always want to have capital on the side and in excess. It's our job to be thinking about one, how do we be responsible to investors, but also two, how do we invest capital in a prudent manner.

I think the reality facing many companies right now is, it doesn't feel so great to have just a lot of capital earning basis points every year and so given that some of the capital that we had on our balance sheet was not going to be used for many months, in some cases, many years, given the financial planning that we were doing. We wanted to look and see, were there more compelling ways to both increase yield on our balance sheet and balance against that risk.

Stable coins were immediately jumped as incredibly fascinating and that given just the volatility in crypto markets, it's created a world where the volatility itself is a yield producing assets and tie the stable coins actually could present a way to one effectively cold cash or cash-like assets on the balance sheet. Low risk in profile and also collateralized secure [unintelligible 00:04:39] that made circles product particularly interesting for us, but yielding materially higher and what jumped out pretty immediately was with just a small percentage of our balance sheets, single digit percentages, we could earn as much yield as the next 95%, 98% and that was fascinating.

It was pretty arresting and it's something that sometimes I think the corporate treasury family is stuck in traditions so much so it actually misses some of the interesting things happening in the world. [unintelligible 00:05:07] cool to be early on this.

Jeremy: Yes, absolutely. I think a while ago, obviously, Elon Musk Tesla bought some bitcoin, whatever these kinds of things, or Square bought some bitcoin. I think there was a little bit a year ago, where people were saying, "Oh, corporations, corporate treasurers, they're all going to buy bitcoin, that everyone should have whatever it is 2% of their corporate balance sheet in Bitcoin or whatever." Obviously, a treasurer or CFO of any business is trying to think about capital preservation.

Obviously, we've seen these huge moves up, huge moves down right now we're at a 50%, decline, et cetera. Most CFOs, whether you're a small business, or a growth company, or a larger business that's pretty gut-wrenching for your working capital to do that, but steady-state 5%, 6%, 7% dollar-based yield is a lot more attractive, as well.

I'm interested, given what your experiences and what you guys are learning, do you think this is something that more and more, maybe it starts with technology-oriented companies where there's just a better understanding of technology and how it works as opposed to say a treasurer of say, I don't know, an oil and gas company, I don't know what, but do you think that this is going to be something that just becomes a more common tool for businesses?

Eric: Definitely, [unintelligible 00:06:41] a lot of interesting questions that were in that. First, I just think Ramp have a fairly vested interest in trying to understand how are people moving money, storing money, and a lot of our article is helping people get more out of every dollar can a $1 feel like $1.05 to a customer through technologies, there's a lot of the driving focus for us. We're seeing even in our customer base, of course, there's many, many, many traditional companies, but we serve, whether it's large crypto companies in their general operations, crypto exchanges in their corporate spending and so we felt like, "Look, as more and more companies are not just spending in fiat currency but in cryptocurrency, we can't not learn about this and also have this first-hand experience."

Part of our focus early on was just how do we start to get exposure, and also take things really seriously as a business and get into it. I think even the act and exercise of learning about it has been great and not just producing but even in making sure that the company is well-positioned to learn about it. I think it's fascinating in that, look, in many ways, at least for me, I'm sure you think about it to Jeremy, but like, it feels in many ways, like early internet, where all the direct applications, how things are going to be used, they're going to take years to figure out, but it's clear, there's something there.

I think that for many companies, if you think that future operations may intersect with the crypto [unintelligible 00:08:06], actually holding some on your balance sheet, you think about it more, you learn more about it, and follow along. I think from creating a value for the business in the future, it actually can be quite high.

Jeremy: There's lots of good analogies with the earlier evolutions in the internet, but putting some stable coin yield on your balance sheet is the proverbial toe in the water. It's like whatever businesses are like, "Okay, we have to have a website, we have to at least put something up there, who we are, and maybe a little bit of it's like the brochure, where was the concept back then." It's there and now you're saying, "Okay, what are other people doing? Oh, wait a minute, people can put a customer support request in through the web, or oh wait a minute, we can sell our products through there, or our product is the website or whatever goes on."

I think crypto is similar, as businesses begin to dabble on this. We've actually had a theory that the corporate treasury side of things, and basically dabbling in yield and so on, is exactly what you said, just like a gateway to be learning about it. Operationally all of a sudden, you're transacting in a stable coin, you're like, "Wow, this is actually pretty powerful, as opposed to an ACH, or a bank wire or traditional card transaction." It leads people to look at the operational side of it as well. From treasury capital, working capital, working capital to payments, you can see how a lot of this stuff can definitely evolve.

Eric: Totally. I think that's exactly it. There's some businesses for, I think that for most businesses holding Bitcoin on their balance sheet might be diving right into it and taking on a few variables at once, but I think you're exactly right, stable coins is this really interesting first step where in many ways it's very familiar. It's a dollar it's tied to it. You're not taking on. Most people don't have experience with foreign exchange and Forex and even other Fiat currencies.

[unintelligible 00:10:11] cryptocurrencies and you start to hold these different variables concept and you start to I think see actually there's something different and unique, and you start getting things where the obvious of okay, there's higher yield back into dollars I can do this this is great, and so it's a better use of capital, but I think you're right you also get these other side effects. If you see how easy and simple it is to move funds in this manner. To track to get instant settlement. Other attributes which turns out really useful and not some [unintelligible 00:10:41].

Yes I think it is kind of this very interesting gateway that I actually think that many people if they were thinking in a [unintelligible 00:10:49] manner about their businesses would be using more, and I think frankly should be using more.

Jeremy: Yes. I think we're very aligned with you on the sense of how do we return capital to productive use in businesses? Which is there's these implicit levies that exist on businesses which are all these costs. They can come from a lot of different places, but within the financial system there's all these embedded costs, and can internet native services, internet native software, and actually now with crypto like internet native protocols bring the same kinds of unit economic efficiency, and the 10X improvement in product experience that you get out of internet services.

Can that finally arrive in the financial realm which maybe ties a little bit back to your core mission as you described it. I'm interested in hearing as you've been at this for a number of years as well. FinTech I think for a long time has been innovating on top of a whole set of existing infrastructure. The traditional core banking infrastructure. The traditional dollar settlement infrastructure card, rails.

There's a lot of innovation to be had in just making those just easier to use and have better tooling around them. I think you guys have done an amazing job Just getting out ahead of that. I'm interested in your take on does crypto represent deep tech in FinTech. There's deep tech in certain categories. Is it going to a deeper level versus innovating at the automation user experience and data level which is I think a lot of what we've seen to date from FinTech?

Eric: Yes. I think your analogy is quite good, and I think it aligns with how many people perceive it which is-- I do think that a lot of the crypto scene does feel deep tech, but what's interesting about it is, because you're able to rearchitect and get away from frankly just poor in some cases design decisions, things that are crazy of like yes. On weekends no money movement despite businesses increasing. It's happening from armchairs, desks at home things over the weekends like paradigms that don't totally hit and so in a way I do think it's deep tech, but because it's rebuilding the building blocks it's showing up in a strange way.

Even things like productivity, use cases, and interfaces. I do think there's going to be a lot more innovation, and we're seeing it even over the past six months past years that's speeding up. I do think that in general the API application and the abstraction way of even traditional finance players to become. In our case [unintelligible 00:13:40] is actually setting this up.

In our space, we have an interesting preview to this, because my last company was bought. Registering Ramp was bought by Capital One, and so we got to see up close what many considered to be the most tech forward of the banks how did it look? I learned things that shock me from [unintelligible 00:13:58] sense of things that like core processing of credit card transactions did not happen at Capital One. It happened at a third-party provider. It's almost for a developer imagine if you wanted to write code and you had to instead of being able to access AWS you had to phone in. [unintelligible 00:14:14]

Jeremy: Yes, totally. At the bottom of that stack or FTP servers and [unintelligible 00:14:18] text files.

Eric: Completely. Maybe that. There were still Coball developers that I met. It's nuts what's going on. I guess what I would say is that I think one of the most interesting that's happening at least in traditional finance that we're very passionate about is I think that many large banks and also many traditional finance service providers don't think about is they fundamentally don't think about your time. They've been around for hundreds of years. Their founders might have died 100 years ago. They're taking bank holidays off, and I think part of the reason why Ramp grew so quickly was not just that we built software interviews that are easier to use, and save you money, but that would see people time.

If you can really build interfaces that are intuitive match to people's workflows, you can get the best out of fast and efficient financial settlement, but if you can make work easier and allow people to do higher order more productive stuff that's actually where I think new battle lines are getting drawn, and why I think FinTech is accelerated in many ways. There's obviously a lot of breath to it.

Jeremy: Yes. sort fundamental infrastructure changes and as described like some that's happening just by building better software and leveraging data on top of what is underneath still got awful. Some of it like replacing that got awful with something more modern like digital currency or whatever, and then there's this continuous cycle of automation and user experience, and just driving that.

One of the ideas that we talk a lot about is the idea of programmable money. That's a concept that I think is pretty core to crypto as well. When I started Circle God almost nine years ago the thing that got me into it was this idea of programmable money. By my background like I started my career building developer tools and programming languages and app infrastructure and app servers, and all this sort of stuff for the web, and had been building software platforms for a long time and around media and content and data.

The idea that you could actually have monies and native data type on the internet, and then it's programmable with smart contracts was just really, really mind-blowing to me. It was like, "Okay you could actually have programmable money, and that's different than the API application or open banking or [unintelligible 00:16:51] the subtraction layer to get it this or that or whatever."

It sounds like for you as you think about Ramp, the automating more things in the financial landscape of businesses is at the core. In some ways, it's like automating these things is about returning capital and time. I'd be interested in when you think about the target area of corporate commercial and corporate finance, what's worth programming? What's worth automating? What can you unlock? What are the things that would really make a difference in the velocity that businesses have?

Eric: All of it. [unintelligible 00:17:33] my try to answer, but what are companies anyway? What actually are they other than organized systems to produce something hopefully. In a pure financial sense to produce returns. It's the notion if you bring people, time, money, resources together you can go and do this. I think that for many companies [unintelligible 00:17:54] you're working at a company you now a lot of people who are, and I think a lot of people identify and resonate with the movie office space.

Things are so inefficient, because that's often how it is. I think that for me if you can both automate and program money, but even automate a lot of the workflow that goes with it that's where the really interesting stuff goes on. For example, I'll give you some one [unintelligible 00:18:18] from the corporate hard world and expense management world is the IRS put out this role that if you want to take a deduction for an expense in general you need to have proof of it.

If it's an expense over $75 you need to have a receipt. That one rule means that whether you're a company with 50,000 people or a small startup, it is set across literally what is every year millions of manhours, productive hours being spent just collecting receipts, tagging it to the right transaction, closing the books. Making sure if an auditor were to open the books or the [unintelligible 00:18:54] could actually go and uniquely find it.

It turns out it's just for to collect data that existed in the first place somewhere. When we think about even programmable money and interfaces one of the small things that Ramp does is we actually started to automate that process through [unintelligible 00:19:10]. The second that a transaction is triggered we authorize a transaction of above $75. If it's in person, a card present we can text the cardholder. Pull in [unintelligible 00:19:20] get a service.

The user can take a photo send it back. If it's an online purchase we can trigger an email. They can forward an email. You can [unintelligible 00:19:28] with Gmail and actually say we don't even need a person to this in the first place. A transaction is authorized. Let's pull from the inbox and see is there a new transaction from this merchant? Pull it on through. Automatically close it.

I actually think whether it's programming money or programming [unintelligible 00:19:45] either workflows around it, that's where really interesting magic happens, and you say, "Get rid of this crap." Actually, build your business instead of you wasteful on all the ancillary stuff that should be automated away. I think whether it's programming or just automation, so much value to create there.

Jeremy: Yes, absolutely. In blockchain land we dream of a world of all these transactions being on chain. All of the "audit trail" is basically perfectly viewable and you get to the shared state of money, the record of that and the reconciliation of that becoming a lot easier. I'm interested and maybe changing gears a little bit in how much of what you guys do is working with startups and growth companies and the appetite for startups and growth companies for just fundamentally changing the kinds of tools and services that they use? We see that in SaaS and if you're a startup you're just all SaaS products and stuff like that. Just interested in that and how much of that is a driver for you guys?

Eric: It's a really good question. I actually think that the orientation of most of our customers is they've got some business. The happen to have to need credit cards. They happen to have to need expense management, accounting audit information but in many ways in like the focus and brunt of what they're trying incidental. It's a thing that they need to use and and to cope with.

I think that a lot of for us what's made and how we orient the services is something that it feels very familiar. You know a credit card, you know expense management, you might know accounting before, and so, in many ways, you can substitute this out, but once you get into the service you start seeing there's so much more behind it that's automating, that's showing you things that you didn't expect and go for it. I actually think that at least in selling to companies, making it feel much more familiar and less foreign it's a big asset.

Often people don't come and say I came to ramp.com because I'm looking for finance automation. They say I'm looking for corporate card, automate some stuff for me, help me spend less all that. In many ways I think it's part of why as a first crypto product we were so attracted and interested in stable coin. It's like oh I know these are dollars on the balance sheet.

We already have dollars on the balance sheet. We're subsiding with dollars on the balance sheet but behind it was actually so much more interesting and sophisticated. I think, in many ways, a lot of the products that grow most at extreme rates are really like that. There's an element of familiarity. It fits into something you already know, you already love, but then behind it can actually evolve products rapidly.

These gateway products or these products that are really radical beneath but familiar take a form factor that got too lazy. The credit card was a perfect example. This like most credit cards of people use are the same cards that people's parents did. Has it evolve in 30 plus years and it can do so much more if you can take it so we try to think a lot in those terms.

Jeremy: Totally. We think of USDC is dollars with the superpowers of the internet and it's like well what does that mean? Well, the Internet's got a lot of really powerful capabilities and you bring dollars to that. That's awesome. I guess a higher-level question too which is a little bit of where you see the world going which is there's a little bit of the view that if you look at commercial banking today, it's still dominated by Chase, Wells Fargo, and Bank of America.

Just the biggest commercial and just integrated mega banks. The mega banks have have all this stuff. There's obviously the commodity products which your business banking products and then there's corporate finance and as you move up the curve, there's all these things that happen for businesses. When you think about the term [unintelligible 00:23:51], and you think about those companies. You don't have to name names but you know those kinds of companies, do you think this is a world where in 5 to 10 years similar to the share shift that happened in media, communications, and retail with the internet.

Do you think that's the kind of share shift that will happen going from the traditional financial market utilities into more internet native financial market utilities that are build from the ground up in the ways that you're building Ramp, or that Circle's building what we're doing or other things like that. What do you think that looks like? Because at a high level, I go out and talk to investors as well and we think that [unintelligible 00:24:33] is extraordinary. It's many multi-trillion dollar [unintelligible 00:24:38].

How do you think about it? How how do you think about that space and without getting into details of your product roadmap, just do you see companies like Ramp occupying more and more of the verbs of finance for what needs to be done to grow.

Eric: I do. I'll give you a couple of frameworks that we try to use to think about at this, and also what's the relative speed that you can expect on this? One I just think that we've been in a very interesting moment of time where in many ways prior to the past 5, 10 years and there was a few things in the conditions of the market, you really couldn't enter this market. In many ways of my [unintelligible 00:25:20] capital one was an anomaly rich Fairbank who runs it is alive and well his closest competitors James Pont Morgan tried. He died at the turn of the century like 100 years ago.

American express was started in 1850 and that window really closed on it. I think in financial services a lot of it is one what's your cost of capital? What yield can create how secure is this? It's a business that historically where scale has really mattered. I think that we've just entered a period over the past 10 years, and I think that we're very much in it where new competition can start to come in. There's a few reasons for it.

One I think some of the at least in the card world and also in Neobank world regulation coming out of the financial crisis, people and regulators not wanting want banks to be too big to fail to prop up smaller banks effectively incentivize all small banks who had a bank charter to work with different and modern providers. You didn't have to be a bank to start creating bank like services.

The cost of interest dropped dramatically, which basically means that the longstanding advantage of banks which is extreme low cost of capital wasn't just with banks. You could go out and you could borrow if you could slow yield environment coupled with technological innovations. Whether it's Bitcoin, cryptocurrency. Whether it's infrastructure players like Marketta in Stripe or plaid or the lake, suddenly you could start to go and access into the core building blocks of storage of money, assessment of risk, creation of payment vehicles, low enough cost of capital that actually even if you were just starting out you had a focus you could get you could start to go.

Now the conditions were there. How do you build something that moves a lot faster? I think when when we were starting, we were trying to think through it was like okay these companies even though they have a lot of issues are quite good at something. American express which many folks see as are nearest traditional large competitor or us to them was extraordinary at marketing and brand. I truly think they have one of the best brands of all time.

We thought if we're going to compete with them it can't just be on the basis of great marketing cool celebrities great points like we should get smokes, chase amazing distribution Capital One, amazing ability to assess risk. We said what's going to be different about us? We felt that one of the truly, the weaknesses in this shoe that none were designed for fast iteration, this product and engineering-led culture, and so let's make speed and ability to iterate quickly be really quick both in the products that we're developing but also too in try to identify where the traditional finance let people down. One of the first ones back to the IRS role let's take that and run with it.

This was true of basically any Amex transaction that companies were doing. Amex never thought about it. They said we're in the points business. We're in the brand business.

We're going to leave the rest of it to conquer, to Expensify to aftermarket providers. That meant that for every company they needed to use two sets of software to do one thing. They needed to plug into a third software which was to accounting. How can we build product that wraps around that so starts to save people lots of time and the questions are you operating in finance? Are you operating in expense management?

Are you operating in accounting automation? Are you operating in broader B2B payments that our fastest growing product today is in payments that traditionally bill.com, banks ACH transactions. That's been growing in access of of 100% per month in 2021. We're seeing that rate coming into this year. It's this interesting exercise where suddenly if this approach of a fast speed is extending into all this do you actually start adding the TMS? Is it something different?

Can you actually in the same way I think you're seeing this with cryptocurrency use cases you never imagined additionally emerge. What can you do there? It's all to say. I do think the TMs will be much larger. I do think that there's going to be some enduring advantages that large banks will have, but I do think that like the music industry where some traditional folks reinvented themselves and became great, but also there's some modern players that really took things on, it's very much happening in FinTech right now, and may happen even faster than I think is possible. You might be more right on the leading edge of the speed that this is going to happen.

Jeremy: I think there's something about when internet scaling hits certain things, and I think we've been floored just with USDC, it's growing at this staggering rate. As blockchains get. more accessible and scalable and usable just it unlocks that start happening are pretty remarkable. One more high-level question for you, which is a big part of the competitive advantage of FinTechs and you ask Jamie Diamond or the ABA or Bank Policy Institute, or any of the significant lobbying firms, I think there's this concept that it's an unfair playing field that FinTechs are not regulated with the same constraints.

They have an unfair advantage, they rely on other banks and can do things that traditional banks can't, and that's clearly true at some level but I guess it begs like a higher question, which is at the end of the day, when you think about your own economics and your own ability to innovate and your own ability to go deeper in terms of what can do with your products and ultimately what forms of capital deployment you can provide for return on capital for your customers.

Do all roads lead the highest growth FinTechs to become banks? We're facing this right now with Circle where we're being in a sense compelled as a stable point issue to become a form of national bank. I'm just curious, do you believe that it's possible for FinTechs to both become banks or have banks? However you want to talk about it, be a bank holding company and compete as you just described on the basis of just speed and doing all these things and just philosophically, how do you think about that set of issues especially over the long run?

Eric: It's fascinating. I feel I have a funny purview to it in that the last company that was bought by Capital One in North America, it was in the consumer bank record entity. Let's say Ramp is not a bank. We don't store money, it's not some [unintelligible 00:32:03] and I'll go through a couple of sides of it, which is one, I think what Jamie Diamond is seeing in particular, I think is really oriented. Again, not a super expert. I think there's oriented at banks like Chime, and others where they're storing money. They might be storing a lie and for the same transactions, JP Morgan could be making 10 cent per swipe on a regulated debit transaction.

Whereas Trump could be making 1.5% or 2%. I think in many ways that is both true, that there is an unfair advantage. I'd also say some of it was actually explicitly by design. It strikes me it's easy to forget, but that was the intent of the two big to fail regulation. It was actually that smaller banks would be propped up, and have a way of competing and that new and alternative structures which would be able to supply such that you can see further concentration.

I think it certainly doesn't feel good. I'm sure to be a large bank could be working just as hard if not some cases more in make less. I do think there was some regulator intent in doing that just as a third-party bystander in that. Next, what I would say is that in some ways, the effect of regulate, I think it's important to like there are many cases, I think when regulators can be really right where making sure that people's particularly, if you're storing money, people's livelihood, they really understand the nature of the asset that they're getting into.

Also that, no matter what happens in the next case that you wake up the next day prices happens, your money is still there and it's still good. I think is an important service for regular supplies. I actually think that it's hard. I actually think a lot of the areas arguments start to come in where it's either you have to go with regulators or you have to go outside of it, and it's either this or [inaudible 00:33:49].

I think that, at least for me, I do think that it should be possible to carve this. I'll give you some analogies and some of the debates that we got into at Capital One where even in computing and insecurity, you generally own security where a lot of these issues would start to come up in past experiences where people would say, "Look there was a governance instance organization at this bank" because they said, "Well, the regulars are going to look at us.

We need to make sure that prior to the shipment of any new release to the website," There had to be a legal review. There had to be compliance review. There had to be marketing review. There had to be for like-- It was effectively three months of reviews for any new feature to be shipped at. At least at my team at Capital One, we said, "Well, if I'm updating interest rates or if I'm changing the way that money is held and it could have this effect, no problem."

That makes sense to me, but you should be careful about that but if we're updating a button on the website to change the color, surely there we don't need eight councils to review this. I think in many ways, I think many companies could just crush and stop moving slowly is that all decisions are regulated to the same weight and same rigor. That's truly the important one need to be and I think one of the wonders of AWS, but also too, even of cryptocurrency in general, is effectively, you can compartmentalize, you can have different protocols applied to different parts of the infrastructure.

I think that kind of paradigm is the right way to approach this where even in running the companies, if you want to hold funds, that can be great, do it. Approach that with care and you could talk about even divisions within that. Try and explicitly design your own organization or shipping infrastructures and practices to understand where is the really risk, where is there not, isolate things through so you can actually both take care of really these important regulatory terms, but also shift fast. How do you think about it, Jeremy?

Jeremy: I think It's very similar and I think obviously, where the space that we've always been in these gray areas and there's just all these technologies that are emerging, that regulators haven't had really any specific, let's just say rules around and so it's interesting. It's like you want to interface with DeFi, well, what does that mean? There's never been anything. It's a completely mind blowing, there's a decentralized capital market.

How do you legally interact with that? I think just at a high level, that enterprise risk framework and how do you empower a product organization to be able to drive towards decisions and have real risk waiting against. What is something within a framework that really is if it's rated this way, how do you take the time to really analyze it and mitigate it and so on versus smaller scale things and balancing that out?

Look, this is the heart of the issue for FinTech is that balancing risk and enabling high velocity and everything else and it's something we all struggle all the time. This has obviously been a really great conversation and super appreciate it. I will just note for listeners in the next episode of the Money Movement. We're going to be joined by Scott Lawin CEO at Candy Digital to discuss their work in sports NFTs, why they started with major League Baseball in the current state of the NFT market. With that, Eric, I want to thank you again for joining us today.

Eric: Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed this.